4889557251600040570159951720006123305998410500Franny Taft 1 {File name is 0023DS)
KR OK, we're going? OK.
22:37:32 So Franny, what I'd like to start with is the name that you served in
while you were in the military- your first and last name. And if you could also spell it on the tape for me, so I make sure that we have that. And thenalso you current... I know your last name is currently Taft, but...
FT 22:37:45 Well, when I went into the service my name was Frances Prindle. And
that's F-R-A-N-C-E-S, because E-S is a woman. And Prindle is P-R-1-N-D-L-E, and
that was before I was married.KR 22:38:02 And you've told me that you grew up in New Haven?
FT 22:38:04 Yes, I grew up in New Haven where my mother, father, grandmother, and
so on... where the family had been in New Haven for 300 years.
22:38:18 Actually, if you go back on my mother's side, um, far enough, a Bradley
farmer was one of the five people that Johnny Davenport sent down to
00:01:00New Haven to see if
22:38:32 it was too swampy and whether they'd get malaria. You know, this was a
big scare in those days.
22:38:39 And the farmers lived through the winter, and so Davenport decided,
"That's where I'm going to found a town."
22:38:48 And, of course, those guys in those days, when they founded a town, they
became everything. I mean, they were the reverend, they were the
educated ones, and they became the ruler of the town, and mayor, and
whatever you'd call him.
22:39:03 And so Farmer Bradley was one of those, and mother was descended from
him. So the family had stayed pretty close to New Haven.
22:39:13 And now no one... no one in the family is there at all, which is
typical ofthe generations.
KR
{FT
murmurs agreement) 22:39:18 Yeah, as you start to move, especially in the 20th
century, people were just moving all over the place. Um, were you the first in your... I mean... I 00:02:00know that you went... you told me that you went to, you went to college.
FT Um huh.
KR Where did you go to school?
FT 22:39:33 Well, I went to college at Vassar. And my mother had gone to college at
Vassar in the class of 1911. And my sister went to Vassar in the class of
1940. And I graduated in 1942.
22:39:46 And war was declared right in the middle of our senior year.
KR 22:39:52 I know that during that time period, going to college was not necessarily
something that everybody did. I mean, this was an unusual thing to do,
especially for a woman.FT 22:40:02 Well, no, I'm 88, but I'm not that old. It was a little unusual for
my motherto go in the class of '11. Uh, but by the time I went to college, the school
that I went to, which was a little, tiny school...
22:40:16 um, in the school I went to, everybody went to college. It was considered,
uh, it was a college-preparatory school. And, uh, everyone I knew in my
growing up went to college. So it really wasn't rare.
00:03:00KR 22:40:33 For, at least in... I know that some of the women that I've talked
to werethe first that went in their families .
FT 22:40:36 Well, oh, that's ... that's t rue. But that wasn't true when you
lived in a... in a... at Yale, you know, near Yal e. And college was, was very normal.KR 22:40:47 And do you think that that was because of the town that you were
in... it was like more of a, that was important for the town that you lived in, or was it something that, um, maybe because of the...the... your, your family's background and what your parents did? I mean, what was the...FT 22:40:59 Uh, I would say that one, we were in a collegiate town. A university town
actually. And as New Haveners, you know, we could attend all the
lectures at Yale, especially evening lectures, and so on.
22:41:16 And I think my mother and father - my father, uh was a really fine
scholar -I think he would have been horrified if we didn't go to college.
22:41:26 But I know that some of the gals, uh, that... not ones I met in the Navy,
00:04:00because I knew mostly officers, and they all were college graduates.
22:41:37 Uh, but I have run into people - quite a few - who certainly were the first
in their family to go to college that are in my generation.
22:41:48 And, um, some people from small towns in the West where there was
something to do. But you know, they couldn't teach anymore unless
they'd been to college. And uh, even the nurses.
70485631063000
22:42:03
22:42:11 Because in the old days, the problem was women went into either nursing
or teaching. And most of them did have to have some college.So I don't think... I think our generation is (a) college bound except for...
but I'd say your background is much more import ant .22:42:20 I... I see our African Americans just struggling with the idea of
trying to earn enough money to send their kids. And they don't have any 00:05:00reverence in general. The young males have no reverence for education at all. Sothey continue not to go very far.
KR 22:42 :40 DO you think that, uh, what did you think then, when you were
going... when you decided to go to Vassar? Did you have plans as to what you were going to do after school?FT 22:42:49 Actually, when I went to Vassar, I knew what I was going to do after
school, and of cou rse, that's not what I did. But, um, I went to sch - I went
to Vassar because I got a very large scholarship. And, uh, my mother...
22:43:02 my father was in a, really, sort of mental instit ution. He' d been a
victim ofthe real, the real Dep ressio n. And so, we, I got a scholarship.
22:43:15 My sister got a scholarship. My brother got a scholarship very fort
unately ,because I was never registered anywhere except Vassar. I didn't even
ever think about going anywhere else (laughs).
22:43:27 And, of course, now kids apply to four or five or six colleges. But I
00:06:00did win the New Haven scholarship. And then my senior year, I won a scholarshipat college for everything . The whole works.
KR Wow.
FT 22:43:42 So I figured that my college scholarship cost... I went four years,
and it cost mother about $700 (laughs).KR That's amazing.
FT It's amazi ng. It' s, it's... Today, it's a real bargain.
KR 22:43:57 Well, and I was going to say, but even then , that was a... I mean,
that wasa lot of money then but it still was a... it still was a pretty good deal.
FT 22:44:05 It was a, it was a very good deal, and I was a junior Phi Bet there
and was head of their athletic association. And, you know, I've been active at the college ever since and was a trustee 14 years and a head of their alumnaefor six years, and so on.
22:44:22 So I, until Mr. Taft was ill, we... I went back always three or four
times a885190903605year. So I'm a... I'm a real Vassar person.
00:07:00KR 22:44:33 So, um, we kind of got a little sidetracked. But what did you think,
um, what did you think, what were your plans when you entered college?FT 22:44:39 (Indecipherable overlap) I was really pretty clear. I wanted to be a
medical illustr at o.r. And partly because I was really already a biologist.
22:44:51 And, uh, I was terribly dissatisfied with the high school books on biology.
And so I thought, I had some art talent, and I thought I'd be a medical
illustrator.
22:45:05 So that was fine except that I took some art history along the way. And
then I, I really had almost a double major because when I wasn't in the
biological labs, I was at the... over at the art department.
22:45:22 And I even tutored a little bit in the art department. And uh, I took some
studio art, and I took a course in photography.
00:08:0022:45:33 These things were to prepare me really more for medical illustration. But
we had a really glorious art history department then, so I kept taking art
history even if I just audited.
22:45:46 So I took a lot of art history. So then I... I did work in cancer
research atYale right after I got out. That's where I went immediately after
graduation.
22:45:59 And uh, I was making really almost no money, and uh, I heard about the
WAVES. And I heard about the WAVES, because, of course, Mildred
McAfee (sp?), who had been our Vassar head of our alumni association -
the paid director - and then went to Wellesley from there...
22:46:23 But uh, Mildred McAfee was involved. And our dean was very involved,
00:09:00the dean of Vassar then.
22:46:32 And so she was one of the people asked to help put it together. And I
knew the dean's secretary quite well, so I wrote her a rather flippant letter
- which she asked me not to write the dean that way again - and uh...
22:46:47 'Cause I didn't want to go into anything that was kind of just an auxiliary
with people jumping around in uniforms and not really doing very much.
And she assured me it was going to much more than that.
22:47:02 And so it was through her that I just got a notice to go down to the...
what was it? Wall Street and come down for tests.KR 22:47:12 Who was the dean of Vassar then?
FT Uh, oh boy, you're gonna...
KR ,........,
Sorry, I probably have it in my notes, but -
FT Well, no, uh... C. MildredUh no, that's McAfee. I know it just as
(mumbles).
KR 22:47:27 That's all right. (FT overlaps briefly) I can actually find it. I
know that there was an advisory council that they had -FT She was from the south, and I spoke at a dedication for her, so it's uh...
KR It wasn't Ida Comstock, she was at Radcliffe...
FT No, she was at Radcliffe. Our dean, it'll come to me.
KR 22:47:49 It's all right. It's all right. It's not that big of a deal. Um,
just to step back a little bit, um, what did your father and mother... I mean... did your mother have a... did she have a career before she...FT 22:47:59 Well, what Mother did... see, Dad tried to take his own life, and
uh, hedidn't succeed, fortunately. Uh1 and Mother then went to work at this
little private school so that Sally and I could go there.
22:48:15 The public schools were fine... very close by, and... but they had skipped
me one grade, and they were going to skip me another grade. And
mother thought that was a little much.
22:48:28 Because I already went to college when I was 16, and I would have been
15, so she said, "That's enough." And so she got a job.
22:48:37 And, uh, she worked at our school. She didn't do anything, uh, you know,
all that specialized, but the school always had an afternoon study hall. It
was a very competitive school.
22:48:52 And if kids didn't have a certain grade level, they had to go to study
hall in the afternoon. And so she ran the study hall and supposedly was there to answer any questions. And, of course, she always (was) scared to death they were going to ask her a question she couldn't answer, but I think shemanaged (laughs).
KR 22:49:08 And what did your father do before?
FT 22:49:17 Well, unfortunately Dad had been... he went to the forestry school.
He was also a very good student at Yale.And, uh, in those days, going to for- today it's an environmental school. In
those days, uh, it was to really advise people in the lumber business totake care of the... well the trees and so forth, if they had them.
22:49:34 But what dad did was he really studied lumbering. And his family had a
lumber yard down... or did lumbering... down in... I think it was in North87947588773022:49:49 Carolina.
And he went down there after his college, and uh... It was interesting, the
young people there who were going to inherit the business didn't like this guy from Yale who had this book learning, you know. It was that kind oftension.
22:50:07
00:10:0022:50:22 And so he came back. His dearest friends were all professors at Yale,
and that's what he should have done, because he was... he could have been a good scholar. And uh, instead he tried... just tried to make enough money.In those days you didn't marry somebody unless you could support them.
22:50:37 And he kind of went from one thing to another, which is, I'm sad to
say, he was in the investment business when the crash came. So, that's... that's...you know, he always said he'd been ill and he'd said, "If I'd been there, it
wouldn't have happened." Well, of course it would have happened, anyway, you know.Those people who were in that kind of business felt guilty. Guiltier than they
do today (laughs).KR 22:50:54 I was thinking that exact same thing, but I...
FT 22:50:57 He wanted to save everybody and of course, he couldn't even save his
own. And uh, he... he never got over that.KR 22:51:05 Well, that's really hard. That's just a hard thing to deal with. Um,
so you said that you heard about the WAVES. Did you ever... do you remember seeing any newspaper articles or any posters or anything like that about the WAVES?FT 22:51:19 Well, I never saw any posters before I went in. But, um, I did, I
did read a thing in the paper. And that's when it sounded to me like kind of an auxiliary, and that's when I... Oh, C. Mildred Thompson (laughs) 00:11:00KR That's it. Yeah.
FT 22:51:37 And that's when I wrote to the dean's secretary when I was writing and
was saying, "Is this going to be for real?" And, you know, I was only
making $20 a week, so anything could have lured me.
22:51:51 Uh, and it sounded as though we'd get a little bit better pay than
that, butI certainly wasn't attracted by the pay, I just thought...
22:51:59 And I had been, I'll tell you, when war was declared, which was December
7th, uh, I happened to be having lunch with some other officers of our class
with the president of our college.,,.....,,
22:52:15 And he was a pacifist. And he always had guests... guests from around
the world. And he had a little Japanese girl there to entertain us, and she was playing a musical instrument where you sit on the floor, it's rather like azither.
00:12:0022:52:31
22:52:42 And, uh, this one gal in our class, Mimi Zawarski (SP?) came rushing
into the house as said, "Prexy (?), they've bombed Pearl Harbor."And she was almost hysterical. And we were sitting there, and here was this
Japanese kid, uh, student on the floor and nobody... nobody couldthink of anything to say. Just... just said thank you, goodbye and left.
22:53:02
22:53:17 And so the rest of our senior year was... was quite turmoil-ish. And
uh, a number of the gals had, uh, well... significant others that were already in the service.And uh, that's when my senior year, I knew Seth's sister very well. So I invited
him to the, to our senior prom, because every, every other boy I knew was already in the service.22:53:33
00:13:0022:53:49 So they were gone. And uh, we had a, we had quite a wonderful prom. Uh,
Colonel(?) Kilpatrick (sp?), who had a daughter in my class, suggested that we get bunch of the V-12 guys to come up, which we did.They were stationed in New York, so they came up by bus, and it was just very different.
KR 22:53:55 Why the Navy rather than one of the other organizations, because I
mean the WAC had started earlier. There was certainly an ability to work as a civilian war worker. I mean there were lots of other opportunities. Whythe WAVES?
FT 22:54:07 Well, one I guess, was really my Vassar connection - that t ere were a
number of Vassar people involved. And two, Seth was in the Navy ROTC.
22:54:21 And my brother was already in the Coast Guard, and uh, the, of course,
the Coast Guard hadn't been founded quite then.
00:14:0022:54:32 And one ofthe things I didn't really know when I went in but was a very,
very good reason for my staying is that in the Navy you remain an
individual.
22:54:46 You have individual orders, you move as an individual. You may be moved
all over different places, but you're always just you.
22:54:54 In the Army you became - you become - part of a platoon, part of a company, and part of a division. You move as an Army, and it's also one of the things that was so sad when a lot of people went in from the same place.
922020924560
22:55:11 And if some piece of the Army was devastated, they lost all
their friends. And in the Navy, you almost always met just new people because youwere never moved as a group.
KR 22:55:25 I know that some of the women that I've talked to have also talked
about the idea that the Navy, I mean you mentioned a little bit with this connection with Vassar. But they kind of thought... I mean there seems to be a little bit...22:55 :38 I know that there were a lot of rumors about the military women, and that the
Navy tried hard to make sure those rumors didn't attach to Navy women. And they seem to feel that the Navy was somehow more...selective perhaps. Did you have any of that sense?FT 22:55:58 Well, that certainly wasn't a reason for my... all the
reasons for me going in the Navy were all positive. They were not that I was reacting against the Army.22:56:09 Uh, we just didn't have any Army people in our background, and we did
have Navy. And we grew up on the water.
22:56:18 And my brother who just died this past year was Navy through and
through. And uh, he could sail anything, you know, he did.
22:56:29 Uh, so, and I was a sailor. I sailed in the Nationals. I... I... (just don't think) the Army had any draw for me. But I didn't have anything against it. But I had a lot of things for the Navy. And the more I was in it, the more I liked it.
KR 22:56:46 So tell me about... you were in that first.. . I know that there was
that kind of little, tiny accelerated officer class at the very, very beginning, but youwere in the first full officer class at Smith.
FT Yes.
KR So tell me what that was like.
FT 22:57:00 Well, uh, first of all, getting in was fun. I went down to take this exam.
And uh, I'm sort of a, a hayseed,
22:57 :13 and uh, and here were these very sophisticated-looking ladies, a lot of
them sort of dolled up and so forth, and um, the test I thought was quite hard, because it sort of went back to a lot of things you had learned earlier, and so on.
22:57:30 And so when I... I just took the train down from New Haven, of
course,and I came back. And I said to mother, well, I won't make that. And there were a lot of people who were executives in the phone department and so forth.22:57:46 You know, they were very uh... and I was... remember, I was just 20.
So I was a little overwhelmed.22:57:54 And I came back, and I said, "Well, forget that." And I went back to my life
of playing tennis and stuff. And uh, so mother came to me, and I think it
was right after Labor Day, and said - and I had pulled my knee a little bit.
She said, "Well, do you think you can get to New York?"
22:58:11 And I said, "Yeah." And she said, "Well, you got a telegram saying that you
are to report to (indecipherable - Fort something?).
22:58:16 So, uh, I went down and I thought, well now, they'll have some real
00:15:00interviews and so on and maybe a physical? But I got in the office, and they said, "Hold up your right hand." And there were about maybe 20 of us.22:58:31 And we held up our right hand, and we were in the Navy. So it was, it
wasn't... they talk about red tape and so forth. There was no red tape at all as far as I could see. I signed something and then they said, "You're in the Navy."22:58:49 Then, so that was... that was Labor Day. And uh, so I had a whoopdi-doo
time in September, and told my... I was working for these two doctors, and I told them I'd try to find somebody.And um, then October 7th, I was told, uh, go to ... report to North Hampton. And
uh, so I got on the train, and some of the gals that had been on the train, uh, coming from the West Coast, and from New Mexico,San Diego. ..
22:59:05 22:59:22 And uh, they... I got on the train, and I felt so silly,
"Where do you come from?" And I'd be "New Haven", of course, it's about an hour and a half on the train to Smith (laughs), so it wasn't as though I was getting very daring.KR 22:59:38 They were... but you did go on what they considered a troop train.
You were there all other... it was a Navy train with all other Navy... or military train with all other Navy women.FT 22:59:47 I think so. I don't think there was anyone else on that train. And
then they... of course, we were all in civvies. And you know, when you get a whole bunch of people in civvies together, they look like a motley crew, you know? It's really...the Navy is a great... I mean the uniform is a great leveler. And the uniform
also made everybody look their best . But we were just in whatever people happened to wear. And we stayed that way, you know ,for I'm gonna say a good two weeks.
23:00:04 23:00:23 And the Smith girls... this was one of the big disgraces of
Smith. When953770941705we... we still had to march everywhere. And when you march up and
down the street and you're not in uniform, you look like a group that's being
shown around a college or something - really miscellaneous.23:00:41
23:00:55 And they used to boo us. Now the reason they booed us was, among other
things, we had taken over their hotel where everybody ate, at Wiggins (sp?) Tavern. That was the famous eating place in North Hampton.They didn't go to the hotel, but they could put their parents up there . And we
took over the hotel along with Wiggins Tavern. And so I think they were miffed at that.23:01:05
23:01:17 And we had taken over some of their dorms, so I'm sure they had to
move, some of them. Anyway they... we really looked awful. Once we got in uniform they... they thought, "Oh we have the WAVES," you know, it was...But the... I remember the administration at Smith really landed on them.
They were very disturbed that the girls... the young girls coming in then
didn't... they didn't think about what was going on.KR 23:01:30 But then as it turned out, I know a lot of the Smith graduates then
ended up staying on and enrolling in the WAVES and staying around.FT 23:01:39 And we had uh, we had one or two who were in that pre-class. Most of
those people were already, uh, in some sort of administration. Uh, a
couple of them were taken because they were good history teachers or
something of that sort.
23:01:58 I had two of my old teachers were already there. Uh, so they had taken
that kind of person.
23:02:06 So, and that group we thought was quite wonderful. This Peg Guier (sp?)
that writes about it... uh, she was a North Hampton person who'd been a North Hampton teacher, and she went in, and she was taken in the earlygroup. And uh, they were... we thought they were special, you know.
23:02:26 But I think we came... sort of came in the party when we got our uniforms.
And uh, and of course, the uh... what's their name in Boston did t hem.
23:02:41 Filene's. Filene's did them. And one of the things that was funny was a lot
of these gals were bigger. They went by averages and so forth. And they
made many too many silly little uniforms (laughs).
23:02:54 You know, more of the gals were, they were a big healthy lot. And so...
but we did look good, and we... we got two pairs of shoes - one dress
pump and one regular Oxford. And uh, that made people very jealous.
23:03:13 And the... and then uh... when we went through the training, uh which
was... it wasn't difficult at all. We marched everywhere .
00we... we still had to march everywhere. And when you march up and
down the street and you're not in uniform, you look like a group that's being
shown around a college or something - really miscellaneous.23:00:41
23:00:55 And they used to boo us. Now the reason they booed us was, among other
things, we had taken over their hotel where everybody ate, at Wiggins (sp?) Tavern. That was the famous eating place in North Hampton.They didn't go to the hotel, but they could put their parents up there . And we
took over the hotel along with Wiggins Tavern. And so I think they were miffed at that.23:01:05
23:01:17 And we had taken over some of their dorms, so I'm sure they had to
move, some of them. Anyway they... we really looked awful. Once we got in uniform they... they thought, "Oh we have the WAVES," you know, it was...But the... I remember the administration at Smith really landed on them.
They were very disturbed that the girls... the young girls coming in then
didn't... they didn't think about what was going on.KR 23:01:30 But then as it turned out, I know a lot of the Smith graduates then
ended up staying on and enrolling in the WAVES and staying around.FT 23:01:39 And we had uh, we had one or two who were in that pre-class. Most of
those people were already, uh, in some sort of administration. Uh, a
couple of them were taken because they were good history teachers or
something of that sort.
23:01:58 I had two of my old teachers were already there. Uh, so they had taken
that kind of person.
23:02:06 So, and that group we thought was quite wonderful. This Peg Guier (sp?)
that writes about it... uh, she was a North Hampton person who'd been a North Hampton teacher, and she went in, and she was taken in the earlygroup. And uh, they were... we thought they were special, you know.
23:02:26 But I think we came... sort of came in the party when we got our uniforms.
And uh, and of course, the uh... what's their name in Boston did t hem.
23:02:41 Filene's. Filene's did them. And one of the things that was funny was a lot
of these gals were bigger. They went by averages and so forth. And they
made many too many silly little uniforms (laughs).
23:02:54 You know, more of the gals were, they were a big healthy lot. And so...
but we did look good, and we... we got two pairs of shoes - one dress
pump and one regular Oxford. And uh, that made people very jealous.
23:03:13 And the... and then uh... when we went through the training, uh which
was... it wasn't difficult at all. We marched everywhere .
,,......,_
r""
23:03:27 And I became the company commander. I don't know why., because the
company commander had to get up very early in the morning and get allthe troops in line.
23:03:37
23:03:53 And so then you huffed the troops down to the hotel where we ate all
our meals down there. So I was up on the main street in Gillette (sp?) House. So I huffed the troops down the hill, and thenI had to be the last one in line to see that they all went through. And then I
had to be the first one out. So I think what I got in the Navy was the ability to eat very fast (laughs). And I still eat... I still eat pretty fast, butI'm slowing down a little bit (laughs).
23:04:09
23:04:23 So... and then you know, we did our major marching out on the Smith
fields, and you know you have to go by the waterfall to get down to the fields. And huffing the troops over the waterfall...Um, I lost my voice then, and it's never really come back... went down about an
octave and stayed there.23:04:32 But uh, I enjoyed that. We had a... a lot of sense of our own platoon
and company.KR 23:04:42 Uh, tell me about first when you... when you... I mean tell me about
a littlebit more about the uniform. Describe it for me.
FT 23:04:48 Well, the uniform, of course, was designed by Mainbocher (sp?) and the
thing... there had always been a Navy nurses' uniform. And that uniform
was simply a man's uniform with the buttons put on the other side.
23:05:02 And it was very rigid - very straight. And Mainbocher, of course, was one
of the great designers at that time and he was sort of a genius.
23:05:11 He had softened all the lines so that the neck instead of being
pointed, you know, was rounded and so forth, and the jacket was rounded. And it was, uh, very adaptable. People of all different sizes looked... really looked good in it.23:05:29 And we, of course, wore uh, a reg. shirt... uh, white shirts. And then
we had this famous necktie, you know, which I still wear now and then. And uh, it was not... you didn't tie it in a bow. You just tied it in a square knotand it ... and it hung down.
23:05:47 I can't tell you why, because I'm not a dress designer, but it really
was abeautiful uniform, and it really looked feminine.
23:05:59 And uh, and the hat caused more troubles because our heads... it had to
fit right. And uh, we had a gal in our platoon who had this very large head,
and they had to special order for her because nothing fit . It sat up on top
of her head.
23:06:18 And I have a very small head. I've always had to wear little girl's hats,
23:06:25 although I don't wear hats.
Uh, and every one came down over my brow, so I had to have a special hat too.
But the hats, I think, were very good looking. And Lilly Dache (sp?) did that job.KR 23:06:37 It was, it's a really, it was a sharp uniform.
FT Yeah. And people, people enjoyed it, and I never minded wearing it.. . uh, at
all. I don't think we minded... Some people pressed their uniform everyday. I never did that (laughs).
KR 23:06:55 So how did you keep the shirt thing... 'cause those shirts always...
I meanthose white shirts needed to be very... they were very, they were very crisp looking.
FT 23:07:02 Well, our white shirts were sort of soft materials, so they didn't
have to beironed. They were the early... early kind of wash and wear.
KR Um hm.
FT You had to hang 'em... that's what we did.
KR 23:07:16 But that kept them...
FT And that kept them nice.
KR Yeah, because every time I've looked at them, you know, they never look
really wrinkled or anything like that.FT 23:07:27 No, no. They were material that didn't wrinkle, I have to say. I
don't know what it was.But the shoes. Shoes were a problem uh, in that they were fine and comfortable
for me. People who were used to high heels were horrified,because they just don't like to wear flat shoes.
KR 23:07:42 I know a lot of the woman that I've talked to, they liked the pumps, but
they didn't like the loafers.
FT Yes.
KR The loafers seemed to be the problem for a lot of people.
FT They weren't really loafers, they were Oxfords, tie Oxfords.
KR Yeah. That's right. The little tie - the tie shoes. Yeah, I've had them
called, a lot of women have called, they call them granny shoes.
FT 23:07:58 (Overlapping at first)Well, they were granny shoes. I mean there's
no question. But I'll tell you, if you march everywhere ... and every doctor will tell you that's what they should be wearing now. But the thing, of course, was funny when they first came, if they were really used to high heels, they marched in their high heels. And the biggest problem we had were blisters.KR 23:08:18 I can imagine.
FT And they said you know, come in, you have to come in to the uh, whatever we
call it, the clinic to have, have your... and get... and have them treat your blisters.23:08:31 So that they were glad when they got in the walking shoes - that's
really what they were. Uh, they, I was trying to think. Of course, we had towear our uniform on the train, and people were not supposed to ever take their
shoes off.23:08:49 Well you know that all gals when they're going on a train, they're
coming back from New York, they'd slip off their pumps. And supposedly, if anybody called you on it, that was a no no. You had to keep your shoes on(laughs).
23:09:04 There were things like that that were funny. But the thing that was
interesting too was that when we lined up for shots, the doctors were
actually, they were astounded because they had nobody that had passed
out or anything.
23:09:20 And they say an awful lot of the men did. And t hat.. . this was the... this
was the spirit of this group.
23:09:29 And the captain talked to us one night saying, you know, "They have made
all kinds of fun of me." Captain Underwood was assig ned.
23:09:37 He had been also, he had been over a lot of people in the... in the reserves
in the... the same thing that Seth was in, the ROTC. And so he was
accustomed to people who hadn't all gone through Anna polis.
23:09:56 And uh, he said, "They've sent me ladies underwear, they've done all
this st uff ." And he said, "We're going to have the best damn unit of anybody," and so this was also part of that.Every one of them. He said, "Nobody's going to sit in a desk and dangle their
legs, and nobody's going to do this or that ." And uh, they were... they just loved his attit ude. And uh, they really did a lot. They alwayscalled him Undie, they did a lot for Undie to ...
23:10:09 23:10:26 And his wife was even more... she was really adorable. She was
uh, and23:10:46 she had great esprit for the whole... She used to ride her bike around,
and she wore all kinds of dashing hats, because uh, the... I don't know, she was a hat lady.And everybody would cheer when she'd go by with her little different hats every
day. So she was... I kept that... Frances Underwood (sp?) was her name, and I kept my friendship with her... well, until the end of the warand beyond until she died.
KR 23:11:04 How did you end up, I mean because most of the women who went
through Smith ended up going to other places.
FT Right.
KR Either other training places or to supervise women on the bases or things
like that. How was it that you ended up staying there?FT 23:11:18 Well, um, first of all... of course, we were all... One big group of
us was incommunications, because it was the communications department that
had said, "Yes, we can use the WAVES. We want them in our code rooms.
We want them. This is the perfect place for them."
23:11:37 And it was, because I think I mentioned uh, earlier that the women college
graduates - most of them - typed. And some of them typed very well.
23:11:49 And when you are in a code room, what you type is absolute gibberish.
And the electric coding machine then sends it as gibberish.
23:11:59 And when the receptor is set the same way on a ship or in a station, uh,
when they type in that gibberish, it comes out as a text. That's the basic
thing. It's all done by a computer system.
23:12:16 We learned other things that were pre-computer, and it still is a very
complex system. But, then so you had to type very well.
23:12:25 And the British code was all numbers. And of course, they made no sense.
So you just typed in numbers and the message came out. So, um, that
was one advantage.
23:12:37 The other thing that was so crucial, and this was true of parachute riggers
too, was that when gals were sending crucial messages, that was the
closest they were going to come to the front lines.
23:12:52 And women have a very strong imagination about at the other end of
whatever they were doing, they saw a brother, a husband, an uncle, a
father.
23:13:02 And they were extremely meticulous. They - Making a mistake was really
bad news. So when the... as I said, I was the company commander, so that when our orders came that very last day, and Mildred McAfee spoke atour... at our graduation.
23:13 :22 Um, I had this bundle of orders, and I called out the names, and some
of them are going to Tongue Point and others were going to the BrooklynNavy Yard in Washington D.C. and so on.
23:13:33
23:13:41 And I kept thinking, "Where is mine?" And when I got it, it just seemed
to all say North Hampton, North Hampton, North Hampton.And they chose, um, seven of us to stay and teach. And so that's why I stayed.
And I stayed until the very end and closed the station with the captain's yeoman Denley (sp?). And uh, but they just told you what to do.You didn't ask.
KR 23:14:00 Did you ever find out what the -- Did you ever ask anyone what they saw
in you afterwards? I mean after you were at the station, because someone
obviously saw something that indicated ...FT 23:14:09 I think they took the top grades. And uh, actually of the group -
they were a wonderful group um, and there was no nomination or anything like that. It just came from the officers.23:14:23 And we had just one gal of the first group that... she didn't fit in
very well. You know, there was sort of a fitting in immediately at the station. And, of course, those early officers were still there. And then one by one wereplaced the men.
23:14:39 This is a cute story about my... my first class (laughs) that I taught. And
you know, we were staying about one week ahead of the students.
23:14:50 And Navy communications changed. We had got things from Washington
every week. Not a lot changed. But you had to ... it was a weekly change.
So uh, anyway...
23:15:04 I was younger than... I was the youngest person on the station. And so
suddenly I was the teacher. And I went in, and when - here's protocol. Uh, when the platoon comes in and they are seated, and when theinstructor comes in, they say, "Attention!" And everybody stands.
23:15:24 And uh, the instructor puts his notes down - and they were all men when
we came. They'd put their notes down on the... on the lectern. And then
they are at ease, and then they sit down. And so that's fine.
23:15:41 Well, the guy that preceded me eventually was the chief justice of the
New York Supreme Court. Hugh R. Jones.
23:15:49 And he was tall, handsome, blonde, uh, who was... um... very, very
brilliant and through law school and so forth. And he had a lot of wit so
that he was through, and I mean, he's...
23:16:10 it's easy to teach... If you're male, and you're the supreme being, and he's
teaching a bunch of women, he can throw in a lot of jokes and stuff and
did. He also could do magic tricks, which was wonderful.
23:16:23 And so they've had him, and suddenly they have me. So I come in... little
dwarf and... and...
23:16:33 the platoon leader looked at me (drops jaw), looked back at her platoon,
and she said, "Attention" (without much enthusiasm). You know, wuh.
And they did stand, but they thought, "Ok. Now see what you can do." So
the first little bit was hard.
23:16:50 And I had my first lecture carefully done, and I got up and gave it.
And the time wasn't up, and you know, they marched everywhere, and bells rang, you know, Pffff (she makes a sound with her lips). And then they'd get up and go.23:17:05 And so I put the thing down and did it again (laughs), because I didn't
know what else to do. I mean I, you know, it's one thing now when I teach, having taught people in the art for 30 years, I open my mouth and something comes out that's intelligent.23:17:23 But I had only learned this stuff a month before. You know, you have no
depth. And so you can't rely, and of course, you're not supposed to
interpret anything yourself. It's all what you're supposed to. Anyway,
23:17:37 it was pretty funny. But you know, within a week we were all right. They
just, you know, you had to live with whatever you got in the Navy.
23:17:46 But he went on to do very distinguished work and was sent out with the
admirals in the South Pacific and was a big shot.
23:17:57 And that's what I liked about the Navy too. We replaced an individual.
One for one, and so that he could go either on the sea or overseas, 'cause we
weren't allowed to go overseas at the beginning.KR 23:18:12 I know that there was a little... did you feel like there was any
resentment from the men that you were sending them essentially out to the frontlines?
FT 23:18:20 Not that group. Not the uh... they all had been trained as communicators,
and um, they were really wonderful to us.
23:18:34 One of the captains... young guys who was the room inspector was a pain
in the butt. He always... he would sweep across the top of your sills up at
the top of the room where a woman couldn't reach anyway and say,
"Dust," you know.
23:18:52 And one gal was... one gal was... we had inspection every Saturday
morning. And they came in, and... and remember these rooms - we had
four gals and a single. And they'd put beds end to end - four of them
would wedge them between the walls.
23:19:07 And uh, we lived out of a suitcase for almost a month. That was... that
was really tough. And uh, I don't think any of us could do it again (laughs).
23:19:19
23:19:36 So that... he came in one day and this gal was standing at attention,
which was very bow-legged. And he said, "Put your knees together." And of course, she couldn't, so she pulled up her skirts to show that she was bow- legged, and he kind of marched out of the room.Uh, maybe he's in my book, but I've honestly forgotten his name, but he was the
only one that we really found objectionable. Really objectionable.23:19:46 And he stayed in the Navy, I think becauseit's a little bit like the
hierarchy of the Catholic Church. He had a certain amount of power in where he
was. And so sort of wandering around with the captain.KR 23:20:01 Did you see changes in Smith as you... while you were there?
FT 23:20:06 Well, uh, one the Smith gals became quite fond of the Navy, there's
no question about that. And there were some friendships made. I was asked to dinner a number of times in the girl's dorms. And it got to be very natural.23:20:21 Uh, i was very abnormal at first. And then I think it became very natural.
00:16:00And uh, the townspeople - for those of us who remained - than we became very
good friends with the townspeople.23:20:37 Carter Butler (sp?) and his wife Alice (sp?) became among my closest
friends ever. Now both died, but they... we were really close. And uh, we
would, as officers we would go up to their house night after night.
23:20:53 And he could play the piano like crazy. And so... and they... He had been
4F, and he really felt that his service was to really take care of the WAVES,
and so they did a wonderful job of that.
23:21:11 # # # # #
60960535876500Franny Taft 2 (File name is 000306)
KR 23:21:19 Ah, yeah that was it. I think we saw that when we were at - we were
at Mt. Holyoke when we saw that but yes. So let's talk about, let's talk about that, the inspection there .FT 23:21:27 OK. As you know, every now and then, inspecting groups came through and
it's all sort of just ceremonial. But we did get notice that Eleanor Roosevelt
was coming to the station and that she would probably review the troops in
the afternoon
23:21:44 and that she would go to some classes. And so we were all on, on
tenterhooks, and made sure everything was fine.23:21:54 Now, I already knew Eleanor Roosevelt - not well, but I knew her
because herhusband was a trustee at Vassar. And um, so um, I thought, "Well, if she
comes, she comes!"
23:22:06 But I knew she was deaf, so I figured that if we did something a little technical,
Eleanor wouldn't care. She probably wouldn't listen anyway. So the guys all
march in -Admiral Jacobs(?) and one after another,
23:22:20 and El eanor. And so I had, I knew what I was gonna do, and I was gonna call
on one of the brightest girls, so I put a heading on the board, and the headings
were - they looked very official and
23:22 :34 the normal person doesn't know what they say - so I put a heading on the
board, and then I then called on Miss Denton (sp?) to just paraphrase it and so
on,
23:22:44 and Miss Stanton (?) and Miss Denton (?) both stood up, and then they both
sat down. And then I said, "Miss Denton" even more clearly,
and anyway, it was, it was sort of fun. And we, we got through it and I was
23:22:53
23:23:05
23:23:16 seated next to Eleanor at lunch, and we, we had just a lovely time but
I already thought she was a wonderful person,and uh you know I've been on the, on the national Eleanor Roosevelt at Val- Kill
00:17:00(??) board for, till Mr.Taft was sick, I just couldn't go any more.But she was, she, she was one of my heroes.
KR 23:23:20 She was a big advocate for the WAVES.
FT Yes she was. She was - and I think she was a big advocate for anyt hing. Let's
just say one thing right off. We got paid the same as a man
23:23:31 He got paid more when he was overseas, which is understandable, they got
paid more on the ships. But we got paid exactly what the men got and so it
was a, it was the first time
23:23:44 that women had been paid absolutely equivalent wages.
KR 23:23:58 I want to kind of jump ahead here, just to make sure that we get
some of these things on tape, and then we can go back if we have some time. But tell me about, a bit about closing the station -Well, actually, before we get to closing the station, I know in that last class
of WAVES, the officers that came through, was the first time also that the African American officers were allowed. Do you remember that?FT 23:24:09 No, I'll be honest, uh, I really don't. I had, we had, I had black
students atVassar and so I was appalled at the, it was all lily white
23:24:22 - but remember, on the ships, all the Amer - Afr ican-Americans could
do waswait table, and so forth, and that's where they were until Truman came along,
23:24:34 and so,
I guess I wasn't shocked by it and I don't know, I don't really remember them
being there but I think that's probably true.KR 24:24:41 Yeah, I think it was, there were two in the last class, and that's
the - I just was wondering. I'm going to talk to another woman about them so that's, who's done some research on it, but--FT 24:24:48 And so, well, one, it became clear at one point - now six of us, six
of usofficers lived together, and we had a wonderful house that had belonged to
Dr. Faulkner(?)
24:25:02 and he was an American historian, and his books, some of them, had been
chosen for the services, so he had done very well, he was a wonderful guy.
24:25 :12 And uh, we lived there and took care of the house, you know we had one
hiatus of nine months over in Mt. Holyoke, which was, of course, crazy but
that's the Navy
24:25:23 and they moved us back and forth. When it came time to close the
station, Iwas pregnant - I was doing pretty well covering up and so on - and I, they
00:18:00wanted me at first to,
24:25:38 you were supposed to muster out, I mean, get out the minute you were
pregnant, and so I went to see the captain, and he was a real buddy of mine
and the captain said, "Well, walk around," and he said, "You look all right."
24:25 :51 Of course, I thought, well, the baby won't stay looking all right. He
said, "Youlook fine," and I said, "Well, it's perfectly silly to transfer me because you're
gonna close this station," and we knew that.
24:26:03 And so he said, "OK, why don't you stay and stay on at the station?"
And myfriends were disappearing for going out to Hawaii and so forth, and so we had
FT 23:27:34 Well, that may be the way they disposed of 'em but I wasn't in on that.
KR 23:27:44 OK, OK. Um, I know, so in our last two minutes, I'm very angry about this,
00:19:00What do you think the legacy is of the WAVES?
FT 23:27:48
23:28:05
23:28:18 Well, I think the legacy of the WAVES is that you pay women equally of
what you pay men, that there are areas where women are particularly capable, and that you need those people in a total societyand the Navy, in a way, is a total society. I think it gave women a great deal
of confidence to be treated as equals - once they got their ranks, they were, and uh,I don't, I don't know beyond that. I know that many of the WAC are very loyal
too, I don't know any of the WAVES who aren't really loyal to the WAVES, but then how many do I know?KR 23:28:33 Um hm.
FT And my WAVE friendships -when we, Seth and I took our whole family west,
we stayed, almost every night we stayed with another WAVE friend and I
loved the way they brought up their kids
23:28:48 and I just think there were pretty good values that were just, I feel
was part ofour training, at least , and which I would say was partly the lovely staff we had
at North Hampt on.
23:29:02 Now maybe they made a special effort 'cause it was the first class .
And maybethat loyalty is also the first class - I, I couldn't say that. But you would have,
you'd know better than that if you've run into other WAVES
23:29:17 who, who didn't have a good experience.
KR I - everyone I've talked to is very proud of what they've done. Now that
could be because that could be why they're talking to me, but they all feel very 00:20:00strongly that what they did was, that is was good and had meaning in their life.FT 23:29:29 Oh, absolutely, and um, friendships were terrific, and you know, you suddenly
found you could do what you did. It made me into a teacher.
23:29:41 Um, because I had fought that, I had said to Dean C. Mildred, she said, "You've
got to go to graduate school." And I said, "I, you know, I've worked my way..."
I'd worked all my life since the time I was nine and he became ill,
23:29:56 and I said, "I've got to just work for a little bit and relax." And of
course, thatlasted about three months, and so... but we got the GI Bill.
23:30:08 The thing that's horrifying to me is I've run into a couple of WAVES
since whodidn't really take it in. They didn't realize that they could go on to college.
KR Um hm.
FT 23:30:19 But those perks were absolutely wonderful. That was - Seth went to law
school and I went to graduate school (something) the rest of my life, so
between the Vassar connections and the Navy connections,
23:30:35 um, I owe them a tremendous amount, which I've paid back to Vassar but
there's no way to pay it back to the Navy.
23:30:42 # # # # #
